Obj-C: "We Hate Everyone And We Want Revenge"
Submitted by Ed on February 18, 2010 - 1:46pm
I'm not particularly interested in Objective-C for its own sake, but I want to be just like everyone else and make TEN BEELION DOLLARS on the back of the iPhone. I've been trying to play around with MonoTouch--which is, to borrow a technical term, really really cool--but it seems to require enough foreknowledge of Objective-C and Cocoa that I have to learn that first.
And I have a question. Well, two questions.
Question the first: How drunk were they when they came up with this insane language?
Question the second: What made the XCode developers decide they hated other people and wanted to punish them?
It's all a Matter of Perspective
I sympathize with your frustration, but there's nothing really insane about ObjC. It's just C with Smalltalk messaging and dynamic OO features. Once you get used to it, it won't seem odd at all. In fact, you might actually find you like it.
Besides, if they had truly hated us it would have all MFC-style C++. Or Java.
Pff. Why, yes, it's "just" C
Pff. Why, yes, it's "just" C (in itself a travesty to be using for application programming in 2010) with Smalltalk bolted on. And I do mean "bolted" on. There is no reason for it to be a bunch of syntactic barf--nearly every feature in Objective-C could have been done in such a way that it wouldn't look like someone tried to display a binary file. Obj-C is the first language I've seen in a while that is actively hostile to the simple act of reading it. There are some syntax quibbles with every language, but man, I didn't even know how good I had it when I was forcing myself to learn Ruby. Objective-C has made me thankful, because everything else seems halfway comprehensible in comparison. To be fair, the Cocoa libraries do seem extremely well-thought-out and certainly benefit from the message-passing OO features of Objective-C, I certainly see why you'd do it that way--just not why you'd hate your users so much to make them read it. (Or work with XCode.)
You actually made me laugh out loud when you suggested Java would be worse--and I don't even like Java! Java is a sane, (mostly-) consistent language that actually presents a unified whole for most tasks. Objective-C is two languages badly mangled into one.
Sigh. This is the future, for God's sake. I know we don't have flying cars, but we could at least be beyond this crap.
It's over 20 years old...
You are dealing with a framework on the iPhone that is well over 20 years old. The iPhone OS was cut out from OS X, which itself is derived from NeXTSTEP, where everything was built on top of Objective C.
Hence the "NS" prefix which litters all the objects you deal with when doing development.
I know. I'm not a
I know. I'm not a complete newbie, just somewhat. ;-) And I'm building mental voodoo dolls to stab Google for not releasing Android three years sooner. MonoTouch, however, is (to borrow a Steve Jobs-ism), insanely great. Having looked at the basics of Cocoa enough to start building a mental model, it's making some sense when I apply the .NET worldview to it.
I'm looking at doing some game development on the iPhone, and I'm impressed at some of the tools available even for MonoTouch. The CocosNet port isn't really very mature, but, of all things, XnaTouch looks pretty promising for what I want (2D only, preferably without wanting to reach for a drink because of writing OpenGL directly). Little more playing around and I think I'll be starting off on my first "real" project on the device. Pretty excited, honestly. The documentation for a lot of the use of MonoTouch (how to get familiarized and get working, as opposed to the API itself) seems rather sparse, so I've been taking notes in case I have a spontaneous and never-before-seen ambitious streak to write something up.
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You Really Hate the Message Selector Syntax THAT Much?
So, you really think changing this:
NSURL *narrationURL = [NSURL fileURLWithPath:[mainBundle pathForResource:@"foo" ofType:@"txt"]];
To this:
NSURL *narrationURL = NSURL.fileURLWithPath(mainBundle.pathForResourceOfType(@"foo", @"txt"));
Would improve the language significantly? Really?
As for Java, that 6+ years I spent in Java + J2EE purgatory makes it hard for me to see it from your perspective.
Yes, I do dislike it.
Yes, I do dislike it. Anything that makes it significantly harder to get what I want to do done for no good reason at all causes that reaction. If I have to line-by-line the code like a CS freshman because the language makes Perl look good, getting stuff done becomes harder.
And J2EE is probably a capital crime in some forward-thinking countries. I've used Java for a little playing around on Android and some various experimental code (as well as an unpleasant amount of hoop-jumping in school), and while I don't like it as much as C# and .NET, it's a consistent environment. Consistency saves my tiny caveman brain precious cycles I could be spending to get my work done.
OK, I guess ...
Well, I can sympathize with the frustration of dealing with an unfamiliar and possibly unaesthetic syntax; I initially found Python to be repulsively ugly, but I have to admit once I got used to it I didn't find it quite so ugly. I still think Ruby is Python's more beautiful and elegant sister, but I suspect you'll disagree since I believe you've already said you don't like it, either.
I guess it's true that beauty is in the eye of the behold because I don't find ObjC to be ugly at all. Maybe I'm weird (well, I guess that's a given at this point) but I like it; it's a refreshing change from Java/C#/C++. ObjC code and the Cocoa API are elegant in comparison to similar C#/WPF code.
Likewise, I believe Smalltalk has been very influential in the field so ObjC's similarity to it doesn't bother me at all. That ObjC carries forward Smalltalk's message passing mechanism is probably it's greatest strength. Very few other OO languages have anything like it. I think Alan Kay was right when he said it is foundational and transformative:
If you focus on just messaging -- and realize that a good metasystem can late bind the various 2nd level architectures used in objects -- then much of the language-, UI-, and OS based discussions on this thread are really quite moot.
I am curious, though, what your consistency criticism is all about. You've mentioned it a couple times -- what is it that you feel makes something like Java more consistent and ObjC less so and how is it better or worse because of it?
I like Ruby a lot more than I
I like Ruby a lot more than I like Python. ;) Only reason I use Python more is I find it easier to teach and because IronPython is the best option for scripting on .NET.
As for consistency - longer post I don't have time for, but I'll hit that up soon.
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How drunk were they?
They were drunk on power.
C++ is what happens when you take K&R C, add some basic type safety (later folded into ANSI C), and add Simula-style classes.
Objective-C is what happens when you take ANSI C and add Smalltalk-style, message-passing object-orientation.
So how drunk were they? Drunk enough to think that Smalltalk is wonderful (understandable) and that adding Smalltalk functionality to C would be useful (also understandable -- embrace and extend a widely popular language is a decent strategy, and did wonders for C++).
Now, the result may make Perl's line noise look readable, but at least the intentions that went into it were understandable (and possibly laudable!).
Hey, don't get me
Hey, don't get me wrong--Objective-C's syntax makes me wonder who was bashing their face off the keyboard and why they thought that would make a good BNF, but there's certainly a good idea under there. It's just so incredibly user-hostile, and the development tools make me appreciate the progress MonoDevelop (yay MonoTouch!) has made over the last couple years.
Ditto!
I work on a large Objective-C application (OpenGroupware). Not because of Obj-C, but because it is a great application. Objective-C is an ugly language, with a terribly documented framework, and a seriously lame toolchain. I do all my other coding in Monodevelop in C# or Python (I'm porting OpenGroupware to Python). Monodevelop is sooo fine... going back to other tools is like a trip to the 1980s.
Word
I feel you man. Programming on the Mac is like taking a time-warp back to 1990 programming. Even VB had an elegant-ish ref-counting implementation. Obj-C's memory management with autorelease pools is beyond stupid. We've evolved since then.
"Intellisense" in XCode is a slap in the face...
How somebody could "grow to like" Obj-C is entirely beyond me. Especially if they've ever programmed in a modern language like C# or F#.
Honestly, I kind of like
Honestly, I kind of like XCode's editor. It's not terrible--not Visual Studio-good, but not terrible. It's just everything else around it--the bizarre file manager, Interface Builder (WHY?!), etc. that feels so clunky and crap. It's the kind of user interface I expect out of some "we don't need UX experts" company or open source team, not Apple. They're usually awesome about it, which makes it all the weirder for me.
Agreed about "growing to like" Objective-C; it's a mess. "Consistency means your users don't think you were huffing butane." There is a good idea under there! Somewhere! But getting there's a pain.
Don't you dare tell us that
Don't you dare tell us that Apple is not the best in something !
They have the best computers, the best phones and the best ... everything !
;)
PS: ... and most expensive
Pre-processor
You have to keep in mind that a lot of the Objective-C syntax is the way that it is for two reasons. First, to duplicate Smalltalk's method call syntax (eg. obj a:arg1 b:arg2). Secondly, Objective-C started out as a pre-processor that output straight C code. In making a pre-processor, Brad Cox took the easy way out and made all of the Objective-C features really, really easy to distinguish from C.
That said, I think Apple will drop Objective-C in favor of MacRuby. As soon as it's good enough to run on the iPhone anyway. ;)
MacRuby isn't it too slow ?
Do you believe MacRuby will be fast enough to use it on the iphone ?
Shouldn't have any
Shouldn't have any performance problems. MacRuby apps will eventually be fully compiled binaries and use the Obj-C runtime, garbage collector, and Core Foundation. Essentially, a full-fledged native app.
I don't think they're up to the binary stage, yet, and currently compile to a LLVM app, which is still quite fast.
Once they get native compilation, MacRuby apps on the iPhone shouldn't be much different than Obj-C apps.
Disclaimer: I could be wrong.
Pre-processor
"Secondly, Objective-C started out as a pre-processor that output straight C code. In making a pre-processor, Brad Cox took the easy way out and made all of the Objective-C features really, really easy to distinguish from C."
That's patently false. Objective-C always included a runtime. The changes were made to the C compiler, he didn't change the pre-processor to emit C.
I suspect you are confusing it's history with C++.
I don't think you'll see Objective-C disappear until there are language bindings for the entirety of all the libraries that you need to interface with.
No he's right
Objective-C really started out as a pre-processor (just like C++) and (of course) a runtime. Both were written in C. And this idea was incredibly smart because you could just use any of the existing C - compilers for compiling Objective-C code.
And you can still do this today.
Don't believe it ? Then just take a look at http://users.telenet.be/stes/compiler.html
There you will find "The Portable Object Compiler", a preprocessor and runtime for compiling Objective-C code with every plain C/C++ compiler.
Disagreed!
Spend some time learning the language and grokking the terminology (http://boredzo.org/cocoa-and-cocoa-touch-intro/ is *awesome* for this), it really is a great framework and a good language, despite having to repeat yourself a few times and some clunky syntax.
Here's a part that will fool you if you're a .NET developer and are used to events. In Cocoa, instead of attaching an event handler to an event of a control, you provide an object called a Delegate, that implements all the event handlers that you're interested in and set Button.delegate to be an instance of that "Controller" (usually via Interface Builder). A lot of people who come from a .NET/Java background (myself included) scratch their head about this.
I'm not sure why someone
I'm not sure why someone coming from Java would be confused by that -- it falls directly in line with Java's obnoxious Listener/Adapter event model. Of course, Java doesn't have function pointers, so that's about the best you can do. But when you compare it to .NET's event model, it looks ludicrous.
It's not as bad as you make it
While i must admit that the syntax might look a bit strange at a first sight it's at least always consistent (something which you can not say about languages like for example C++). Objective C is just a mixture of Smalltalk and C with just the bare minimum of things to make an object oriented programming language out of C (which is the complete opposite approach to C++). While C++ is nearly completely static Objective-C is much more dynamic through things like dynamic dispatch, dynamic typing and dynamic loading which help you to solve a lot of problems much more elegantly than in a more static language which is sometimes very nice.
I think your main problem is that you wish to find the same C-style syntax and philosophie pattern in other programming language so that it resembles more the way you think how code should look like. If you start freeing yourself from this kind of thinking and accept other ways of expressing things in a programming language you might see that they actually love you and want peace on earth ;-)
You should really take a look at smalltalk and as an interesting application of it the seaside framework and try to understand what rationale was behind it building it on a smalltalk base. Then you might see that there is nothing insane in it but your just so used to one way of thinking.
I won't say that I
I won't say that I know Smalltalk, but I've looked at it and played around with it a little. I understand the concept. That doesn't make it a good choice for getting stuff done. And I'm sure Objective-C is very elegant. So's Lisp. Elegance does not inherently translate into effective development.
And of course there are "other ways of expressing things in a programming language." Great. There are many ways to do it. Awesome. But something is not automatically good because it is different, and while I'm sure cases exist where Objective-C is awesome, I'm really skeptical that writing user-facing applications is one of them.
Fortunately, MonoTouch exists, so I can get work done. :) I'm really digging XnaTouch for 2D games; kind of funny that the first place XNA is a really nice tool is a non-Microsoft platform!
That was not the point
"That doesn't make it a good choice for getting stuff done."
While this is might be true for you and for me (i am not a smalltalk fanboy either), it might not be true for others. There are programmers out there for which it is a good choice for getting stuff done. It always depends on the person and on the project which has to be realized. If you take a look at seaside (a framework for web-applications which was started by some computer scientists at the university of zürich) and look at the problems which you are facing while developing web-applications and see how this framework while using smalltalk solves them (using an objectoriented approach with a continuation-based one - see this paper for more http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.70.7921&rep=rep... ) then you might see that for some things changing your own point of view helps.
"So's Lisp. Elegance does not inherently translate into effective development ..."
The problem is that you only try to see it from your perspective. It might not be a way which leads YOU to an effective development because you have your own programming and development style and your own way of thinking about problems and solving them which is inherently different, but if you would take a look here http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html for example then you might see that for other people it inherently translates into effective development. When you take a look around, then you will always find programmers which use strange frameworks, strange programming languages, things you would not be at all effective with, but strangely they are very effective using these things. Take a look at functional programming languages like Haskell, Ocaml or F#. For using these languages you need a completely different way of thinking when solving problems with them because of the imutable and stateless nature of these languages. But there are programmers which use these languages and are effectively developing things with them.
"Great. There are many ways to do it. Awesome. But something is not automatically good because it is different ..."
Sure. Something is not automatically good because it's different or alternative or so. Some things are good, some things are from an objective point of view just very bad, because they violate reasonable design principles or just common sense. But that is not the case here.
To make a long story short. You don't like it. You don't like the syntax, the programming style, the API and the IDE because it is not your way of doing things. And that is absolutely ok. You don't have to. But from an objective point of view they are not bad. That is the difference.
Fortunately, MonoTouch exists, so I can get work done. :)
That's part of the freedom programmers sadly rarely have (certainly not in an industrial setting): to have the possibility choosing the tools they like most. So i wish you all the good things and hope that you will develop great applications with monotouch.
Dude, if you think I was
Dude, if you think I was speaking in anything approaching an objective or an intended-to-be-objective manner, you are way, way off. ;)
Then it's fine Dude
Then it's fine, Dude. If this was just a liberating cry out of frustration packaged in a provoking rant then i understand this. There would be enough to criticize regarding Objective-C and the old Nextstep-Api (which has really some things that suck) and the X-Code IDE (i had many frustrating experiences myself using this stuff :-) ) for doing a really serious discussion about it.
I just didn't like the very trite title. It just provokes of replying. Maybe you can understand that as somebody who is using mono i am fed up of all senseless rants, flamewars and all this stuff. Just let everybody have his / her freedom.
Happy Hacking Ed! Rock some serious shit with mono-touch.
Agreed completely
It's the language which has more drawbacks that I know of:
- Ugly syntax.
- Dynamic typing.
- Unmanaged.
WTF!
I don't think there's
I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with dynamic typing. There are cases where it makes sense. Writing iFart applications on the iPhone does not seem to be one of them.
what???
Writing serious applications with dynamic typed languages is an oximoron.
Please get up, saying the opposite is like saying that .NET 1.1 was way better than .NET 2.0 because of the lack of generics.
If that is the language which has the most drawbacks you know of
... then you should take a look here:
http://yosefk.com/c++fqa/
and here:
http://chaosradio.ccc.de/camp2007_m4v_1951.html
Then you will a language with has a much more uglier syntax, is unmanaged and has even more drawbacks :-)
And would see how clean the Obj-C approach realy is.
oranges with oranges
Are you comparing oranges with oranges? (I mean, orange A with orange A) Little remainder: C++ is unmanaged too (but thank got, it's not dynamically typed), which makes it have only 1 of the advantages listed above.
Well, ObjC actually has a
Well, ObjC actually has a really consistent syntax, and one that is self-documenting.
It combines (VERY) dynamic programming with native efficiency.
It can be disorienting for someone coming form a pure C (Java/C#) style background. It would take a good programmer a week to feel at home with the syntax. I've written Java/C for over 10 years and it took me less than a week to see the elegance in ObjC syntax.
Basic a judgement of a language on an INITIAL exposure to it's syntax is beneath a competent programmer (akin to the "Python sucks because whitespace matters" argument).
Xcode indeed lacks in some ways in comparison with Visual Studio (mainly autocompletion).
Interface Builder, on the other hand, is way better than anything offered in .NET, and it provides true MVC separation of concerns, thought it might take a while for it to click to you. (When it does, you will see the light). Besides the programming model, even the median GUI consistence and polish of Cocoa apps in comparison to the median .NET GUIs speaks for itself.
The memory management point is moot since the advent of the ObjC 2.0 garbage collector (for desktop apps, that is). That said, autorelease pools and manual management offer a lot more control, which still counts in platforms like the iPhone and iPod --and in application domains like audio/video editing and games (not everything is an office or enterprise app).
C# and ObjC serve different purposes. The first is mostly an enterprise and server side language, meant as a Java competitor. For example (programming tools, enterprise bloatware and some utility small stuff aside), there aren't many commercial Windows applications written in C# --stuff like Excel, Word, Photoshop, Autocad, Cubase, Nero, Windows Media Player, Premiere, Picassa, Skype, ACDSee, etc etc. On the other hand, most OS X applications are written in ObjectiveC/Cocoa.
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